Jonathan Buford
Jonathan Buford is the CEO and founder of Arizona Wilderness Brewing Company. He grew up in Ohio and moved to Arizona in 2002, when he drove his rusted-out 1988 Chevy Nova out West to explore the vast Arizona landscapes. He launched his first business, a window cleaning company, out of his garage in 2006. In 2010, while backpacking through the Arizona wilderness, Jonathan was inspired to take his interest in craft brewing to the next level to start his own brewpub. He orchestrated a successful Kickstarter campaign to obtain the necessary capital and opened the Arizona Wilderness Brewpub in Gilbert, Arizona, in 2013 as the very first brewery in Gilbert.
Starting with just nine employees, Arizona Wilderness found quick success, growing rapidly and securing rave reviews from the likes of Esquire Magazine, The Phoenix New Times, Phoenix Magazine, Draft, Beer Advocate, and Sunset. Arizona Wilderness was even named “The Best New Brewery in the World” in 2013 by Ratebeer.com.
Today, Arizona Wilderness has more than 160 employees and operates the original Gilbert brewpub, a European-inspired beer garden in downtown Phoenix, and a warehouse production and barrel-aging facility. Arizona Wilderness continues to celebrate hand-crafted, artisanal beers that are inspired by the beautiful and diverse state of Arizona and is consistently rated the best brewery in Arizona and among the top 100 breweries worldwide (out of nearly 20,000 total breweries). Arizona Wilderness also receives regular acclaim for its food, including being recently named one of the top 100 restaurants in Phoenix by AZcentral.com.
In addition to providing world-class food and drink, Jonathan and his business partner, Patrick Ware, use their passion for the wilderness to continually drive improvements in Arizona Wilderness’ impact on its community. Jonathan and Patrick have driven initiatives to: (1) save huge amounts of water from the Verde River (more than 320 million gallons) by transitioning the brewery’s base malt to Sinagua Malt (which replaces heavy water use crops such as corn and alfalfa with barley in the Verde River Valley); (2) drastically reduce landfill usage by utilizing recyclable and compostable materials wherever possible; and (3) support local farmers and vendors by consistently seeking out local partners for all menu items, including exclusively offering 100% Arizona grass-raised and finished beef at the beer garden.
Jonathan is also pursuing a career in capturing Arizona landscape photography. He embarked on a project documenting all 90 Arizona Wilderness areas which will be published by Arizona Highways Magazine. He also frequently contributes to the magazine.
In the future, Jonathan looks forward to continuing to grow Arizona Wilderness to ensure a tangible, long-term, positive effect on Arizona.
Episode Transcription
Guiding Growth. Conversations with Community Leaders. In this podcast, we'll explore the human journey of leaders, their stories of humility, triumph, roadblocks and lessons learned. Come join us as we journey together and uncover the questions you've always wanted to know. This podcast is brought to you by the Gilbert Chamber of Commerce, providing resources, connections and belonging for business professionals and modern moments, an event and meeting venue in the heart of Gilbert and at Gilbert Independent, your valley. net dedicated to serving readers with good community journalism. The Gilbert Independent is a nonpartisan newspaper, an online site that covers our town's institutions, development and events.
Subscribe and follow Your valley. net Daily to stay up to date with latest local news food. Again, Sarah Food again. And this one I've been asking for a while. So this is a privilege and he's a busy guy. So we're lucky to have him here. I imagine I'm going to walk out of here being very thirsty too. I think you might. Ok. So what have we got? All this guest grew up in Ohio and moved to Arizona in 2002 when he drove his R out 1988. Chevy Nova out West to explore the vast Arizona landscapes.
He launched his first business, a window cleaning company out of his garage in 2006 in 2010. While backpacking through the Arizona Wilderness, he was inspired to take his interest in craft brewing to the next level to start his own brew pub. He orchestrated a successful Kickstarter campaign to obtain the necessary capital and opened the Arizona Wilderness Brew Pub in Gilbert Arizona in 703 as the very first brewery in Gilbert, starting with just nine employees. Arizona Wilderness found quick success growing rapidly and securing rave reviews from the likes of Esquire magazine, the Phoenix New Times Phoenix magazine and many more.
Arizona Wilderness was even named the best new brewery in the world in 2013 by rate beer.com. Today, Arizona Wilderness has more than 100 and 60 employees and operates the original Gilbert Brew pub. Please welcome the one and only and very busy. Jonathan Buford. Welcome. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So glad you're here. I like bio reeds and it's a good reminder of all the things you've accomplished. That's awesome. Well, let's begin with what we call rapid fire. Would you rather spend a day with your best friend or party with everyone?
You know, how can you rapid fire that, um, best friend, best friend? Ok. This one's easier phone call or text message, text message right now. Sometimes it's different though today is text all favorite superhero. I'm watching the boys. Um, and it makes me hate Superman. So my batman's always, that's always one that the darkness, you know, all dine in or delivery. Oh my gosh. Diane in. Come on. Come on. What is the last book you read? I reread the hatchet. It's, it's a classic. It's like uh something you should read between nine and 15 your first time.
So, and then I read uh, whatever Oprah's book, your, your leave book was last year and that was a good one. And I wish the secret knowledge of water. Yeah, if you're good for like a six month read. There you go. I think I know the answer. So, maybe. But what's the hobby of choice? Photography? Not guess that. But sometimes photography turn into a job. So, be careful there. Would you ever ride a bull? Have you, maybe I should have asked that in your teen years. What was your favorite song?
Wheezer just turned 30 that day? That Wheezer Blue came out, say it ain't. So the first time before 8 billion plays. I mean, Nirvana was life changing but Wheezers Blue for some reason, that moment, I was like, I like this one day with any person living or not. Who would it be? I mean, you kind of gotta go, Jesus, right? And go, hey, dude, what's going on? Let's, let's hear your side of the story. You kind of are gonna change the rest of the world. Let's find out what's, uh, what's the truth guy?
All right. Last question here. Glass half full or half empty. It's just halfway. It's halfway. You, you, you can't lean either way. It's just halfway. But I also actually have one more question. Which Batman, the Christian Bale version to me was an eye opener of what you could do with those movies with the story depth and still sticking to the comics. So there we go. Do you want to curveball that one? That's a good one. I'm a Michael Keaton fan, but we're OK with that. I see that before.
It was characters. The story development was where Christian Bale and the character came together and I was like, oh, I could watch these instead of boom pow bop. I'd rather read the comic personally. But ok, so I thought when we were talking about um one day with any person that you might go back to your amazing true facts of your relation, I'll let you tell it's funny, I'm going to be there next week. I have my grandfather passed and so my great grandmother started the first ever church in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.
Um Foursquare Christian Church. It's a crazy story, but she's a famous person. Her son just passed my grandfather and I'll be in Gettysburg and when you go in, my dad will make us all salute to General John Buford. There's a statue and he's the one who chose Gettysburg as the battleground that, uh, ultimately won the war for the north. Um, the south was charging forward. They're going to go to Virginia and it was all kind of over Gettysburg's word all stopped. Um, Jeff Bridges, I'm sorry, Sam Elliott plays him in the movie Gettysburg, which makes it even cooler.
But he's my great, great, great, maybe one more great uncle. Amazing. And at that point, someone said to me, well, that also means cousin just saying that I was like, oh, that's a good point. Ok. But yeah, that's, that's always one of the things that, you know, that's kind of cool. That is amazing. And you thought that's what he was going to say. This is, and it's funny, I'll be there next week. So I'll have to go to the battlefield again and do the. That's pretty cool though.
It is not when your dad makes you do it. Well, nothing's cool when your dad makes you do it. But do you ever feel like your business is stuck? It's time to get traction and move it forward. Call Chris Spear, your business coach and certified E US implementer. They'll help you use the entrepreneurial operating system to get traction and achieve your vision. Call Chris today at 4808483037. That's 4808483037. All right, let's talk a little bit about growing up and what that looked like, so Pennsylvania and Ohio. Pennsylvania first, Gettysburg was a big part of my life.
Um, not the battlefield side of things, but, but my grandparents, um, were in Gettysburg and then we did move to Ohio. My dad was a pastor, formed a lot of my, uh, it who I am as a lot of what my dad was. Um, and he, he chose jobs which ended up in, in, um, Ashland, Ohio for my high school years um in a small town before that. So his, his uh pursuit of theology was a big part of that. And that's, that's why I was in, in Ohio as he went to a seminary.
And did you have siblings, little brother? You can't beat him up anymore. Uh He's seven years younger. His name is Andrew and he's, he's gonna um we're gonna bike pack next week. So this funeral is actually gonna be fun and I get to see him. That does sound like an adventure. I don't, I don't beat him up anymore. So he likes that. I'm not as angry teenager, you know, and he's not involved in any of those uh creations that you do for work as far as he's a nerd, works for Verizon.
Um Maybe a little different. He doesn't have to spend $8 million a year to make a little bit of money. He just gets a paycheck. It's fun. And like the entrepreneurial side, you're like, oh, I guess I could have gotten a degree and just got a job that would have been easier. Ok. So what's life growing up as a son of a pastor? Um, it, it, you know, obviously I'm gonna speak from my, um, purview and my perspective, but, uh, it was a great reason to rebel um, and turn into a complete jerk to my parents.
Um, so I've had to work through some emotions and, um, a lot of good therapy and advice and things like that. What it is is your dad represents or your mom, if your mom's part of it, um, represents this like leader in authority and you don't know it, you're like anti authority generally as a teen. I don't know if you have teenagers. I don't, but there's a, there's a little anti authority thing that drops in there and so I just did not love it. Um And it wasn't, it wasn't what I would have chosen for myself.
Um And so when I came west, it was a good escape. I, I drove that. No, you mentioned I drove out here with nothing. My 4013st $385 which is what the wad of cash had, was, was to go to Milana Music in 2002 and buy a guitar. And my roommate was like, what about bills? What are Bill? And I was like, let me sing about it. The blues. Yeah, that was my 2002 come to Arizona. All right. Talk about what made you make the leap and get in the car and go. Yeah.
Um, well, I was born in Los Angeles and so for, for, you know, six months of my life, apparently that's what I was. And my dad grew up in California. So I always had this dream. Um, Arizona was what most people in Ohio, uh, or the Midwest would have thought just cliche desert. And so I just never thought of it. It was just movies, you know, it was kind of, you know, typical desert scene. So I had a friend who had um gone through something and needed me to come visit and I got here, I was like, this is, this is awesome, you know.
Um Where's the tumbleweed? Yeah, and it was 2001 at that point. Um And a su is still the dominant force when you landed, you know, the highway system was still not really quite what it is today. The 51 and the 101 I think were under construction. And so it was like this cool burgeoning city, which is crazy to say. Um and back then people like it's grown so much, but it felt right and it was also like, you know, 82 and I flew from whatever. Now, I, I think of things a lot differently.
But what I like about that first visit, I can see eye to eye with the out of towner. And that's why I think, um, that wilderness we can do well, advertising and marketing towards a, a midwesterner who thinks it's all the same. You know, and they come in, they see this wilderness aspect, these green mountains and, you know, snow cap mountains and, and so I get to, I can put myself in their shoes based on that first reaction I had. And so after that visit I said I'm moving and my parents were like, OK, they did, they were supportive.
They had no choice in with my fierce independence since about 12 years old. It was I was gonna be me. Yeah. So that kind of, I think the entrepreneur has a similar story that they weren't normally great in school. Um The owner of um Whole Foods. He has an incredible perspective on the business owner versus entrepreneur. I definitely fit the entrepreneur. Yeah, I'm not terribly afraid of failure, which can be detrimental. But you see, I moving across the country is a good example. I had no, I didn't know more than one person.
He got me a job at Arizona Biltmore and I met my wife three weeks later and that was 2002. So meant to be you. Just kind of you every step forward is always, I think in life is always a positive thing. And that's, that's um what I would suggest to anyone else. Step forward. Where do you think it comes from that. Um, just innate comfort with risk. Have you seen the film that Alex Honnold the climber? Um, he free soloed, um, the hardest rock face to free solo.
Yosemite's, I've heard of that. I haven't seen that. Yeah. Um Free Solo is the name of the movie. They actually did a brain scan on him and his Amygdala does not fire at certain times. Now I can on heights. I'm not going to climb at uh 103 ft face without ropes, but on, on with people and situations on finances. I probably don't have the same responses. Maybe my business partner even has. Um I, I don't feel a lot of connections to wealth. I don't feel a lot of connections to taking a risk and failing.
I don't, it doesn't scare me. So a lot of times I have to surround myself with someone who would say let's not go and do that, you know, let's not start a trail club this through. I know those people. Yeah. And it's important. So, but they would say that our location, Gilbert, no one would have ever opened that the way I did ever, ever even Dan Henderson was like, can I show you uh now what Postino is or a joy ride? And he's like, I in, he introduced me to now a friend Craig Demarco and he's like, you'd be neighbors with this great entrepreneur.
And I was like, no, I like that Arizona Avenue one because I get independence. I don't have to have a neighbor. And so it always has been this. Um, are you sure? And so I can look like a genius, but behind the scenes there's a lot of people doing a lot of things after dealing with those decisions, just making gut decisions. Right. I actually was going to ask you earlier. Um Just your responses in rapid fire if you are a genius, like, have you been tested? No, I think you are.
They're pretty incredible. I have a suspicion that every single human has access to their greatest potential. It, it really is about stepping forward into things, even if you're afraid and you will find your, you'll find that too. You will also find that it takes a lot of people, it takes a ton of effort from many different diverse thinkers to get to a point where you can look like that. There's, there's, you know, Elon Musk who gets brought up all the time, right? And he's an idiot from things he said, but his genius is probably based on the idea that somebody had to go do thousands of times over.
Um And when I say he's an idiot, I mean, we're all kind of idiots. We're humans just looking for the next meal, looking for clean air and water. That's, that's our instinct. Um I think when we find a team and we're, we're in the depths of something, um, that we're comfortable with, like, talking about wilderness. The people who do it are also part of the genius. I think the thing is genius. Um, I'm just comfortable with where I'm at. I think that that's what separates what we're doing from others.
We leaped ahead here. So let's go back to the guitar. We're going to, let's go back to the guitar. I want to know what happens from there because that's a very pivotal point. It's a very big, well, not maybe the biggest risk, but it's a big risk on your part. Where, where do things go? You obviously went to the Biltmore. But um I, I was living o oddly on Guadalupe and Gilbert um in an apartment complex and I had no clue where I was when I got here.
Actually, I accidentally went to the town of Guadalupe and called, I did not have a cell phone called from a pay phone and my roommate was like, 00 no, Gilbert in Guadalupe. It's, it's a whole thing. You gotta come, you know, come east and I, I had no clue where I was and there was 100 and 11 similar to today and I was just kind of like, alright, I've done something here when you think you've gone too far. Keep going. So I got that job at the Biltmore and I had a very unique year working service one.
I hate the Biltmore service industry standards. I did not like it. I was gonna say, I'm gonna guess you felt like you were trapped in a box. Two things I learned though, OK. The, I was one of the few gringos working in back of house and everybody else um was Haitian all over the world. Hispanic, Mexican every, every, you know, and so you, you learn really quick how this culture works where a lot of um a lot of people are doing a lot of work to show the beauty out front.
And that's why I say hate. I don't hate the Bill Maher. I don't, I think hard works great. It's just, it set a good standard that I didn't realize I needed to know when I would have kitchens in, in our business one day to understand how to communicate with people who just don't have access to. Uh generally a white owner doesn't go back to a kitchen and care a lot about that. Well, a lot of it came from that job and it sucked um setting up rounds for rich people to come and have an extravagant wedding.
It's part of culture, it's part of commerce. We need it. But I, I just was like, wow, our meetings and our hr department stuff is like this dirty corner. Our lunch access was, was half of what the front of house access was. The pay, you know, the pay was what it was, you know, and, and so I learned a lot about that job and then the second one was, I got to oddly meet a lot of really cool people. Um, including I'm trying to, um, I'm trying to Al Davis from the Raiders was really liked us.
He came back and he would point every, every time he would come in because the NFL meetings were there and he'd point to the banquet setup crew and he's like the real worker, the real workers. He must have been there at one point in his life probably. Huh? I think he was, I I he would have his Raiders jumpsuit on and, and so it made us feel proud and you know, um and then Muhammad Ali would come in and play piano for us and he, he would say, I mean, this, you know, think about Muhammad Ali at that time of his life, he'd do his fight nights there and you know, his Parkinson's was very well developed and he would still play piano and you're just sitting there like, ok, so again, taking the step forward to Phoenix, got me to this point and learning all of that stuff was part of a journey now that I realized it had nothing to do with employment.
It was about the, the, the knowledge I was gaining experience and the, and, and I still have many friends from that era. Um And they, they now go, yeah, I remember you not fitting in there and now we know why you were just, you need, I needed to have my own space and my own kind of room to room. So that's, that's the Bmore era. Um And then came the going a little too, too much partying and too much independence. Uh It, it's definitely a problem for me uh if I don't have structure and so I went pretty hard um as some people do and, you know, I didn't go to college but I acted like I did a lot, um, at Ohio State and Arizona State, I pretended to be one of the students for a few years.
Then when my wife decided, hey, you kind of need to grow up. It was helpful. It was good. Why, why having a partner's help was, it's the balance. She used the word kind. No, no, there were some stern words that old Chevy Nova was, um, cute at first. It wasn't after a while. So I actually had a good stint delivering pizzas and managing a Papa John's and mcclintock and Elliott. And again, you know, you look back in your history and who you met, how you, how you met them.
Um, and that's actually what led me to my window cleaning business is they were my first client and I, I was able to, um, I was able to take all the Papa John's and turn that into a client slowly building a business out of the garage. That was just again, I didn't know what I was doing I, you're going and telling people you're gonna clean their windows for cash. It's just, it's, it's funny to think about that. You are then going to knock on homes and then slowly that home becomes the bigger home.
And then you're in North Scottsdale going, it's a $700 window cleaning job where I'm gonna be inside rooms with $30,000 paintings on the wall. And, and, and so you learn solely over time how to develop a crew and teach them how to do it, get insurance, all those things. But I still wouldn't call myself. I was very worried about backpacking, getting out of town and that was just the cash to do it. It wasn't like I was on an entrepreneurial journey yet and, and then, and then, you know, from there, um the backpacking picked up and then this, this thing called podcasting became popular back then it was streaming.
Um And I'm very good friends with this gentleman now, but he had AAA um podcast called The Brewing Network. And in 2005, he started out of his garage streaming and you'd have to log into the internet and download this streaming thing. And um I listened to every episode and he's still going today. And again, we're friends, which is full circle. But wow, window cleaning, I'd have this ear bud in my ear and I'd hear these podcasts of how people would start breweries and it was just, you know, it, it went from 50 breweries to 1000 to 10 to 5.
Now, there's 11, I jumped in at 1200 breweries in America. So it was still, it was still coming to the greens. Yeah, there's 11,000 now. But those, those 12,000, I think 500 of them that year were new. So, you know, it jumped that much and we were part of a, uh, um, uh, our freshman year was a part of a really great year for craft beer. A lot of amazing breweries opened that year and now they're either shutting down or they're, you know, struggling. But I go back to the window cleaning days realizing what that meant to my life.
Um, 2008 recession, I got, I got a lot of emails. We no longer need you. Yeah, we had a skin care company that we, uh, um, had four locations that were a major part with that was, that was step one and then you turn the news on and banks are failing, you realize? Yeah, I'm a window cleaner. They're not gonna need me. And so slowly as houses were foreclosing, I was doing odds and ends when cleaning jobs. Um, I went from going to Maricopa and cleaning 1003 houses a week based on neighbors to Maricopa was shuddering.
Um, and so again, learning lesson. It was great for me. It was great to have no real fear and go, ok, this sucks, whatever. Let's keep going. Um And, and it, and it, it did end and you do, you do realize how to navigate some of those things to stop spending your money and just ride it out. I think it's amazing that the universe gave you this incredible education throughout the course of your young adult life. And you just took upon yourself to just chase the opportunity, learn from it, fail, move on.
Are there any opportunities you look back that you didn't take that? You wish you had? No, no, I don't really view the past as this changeable entity. I'm just, I'm really excited that Arizona is where my path went. Um If it wasn't, I'd probably say, I wish I have found a place to live that I liked a lot like I really embraced. But as the journey continued into Arizona, it's, it's still makes a ton of sense to me that this was the place to be. Um And who, what I'm connecting with the um the indigenous tribes um history right now is a big part of what I'm seeking and what this desert represents to when we say the universe to some spiritual realm.
What is the desert represent to that? Because everyone has a um cliche is the best way they have their view of what the desert would be. But it, it, it's one of the most diverse places on planet Earth. And so I think um yeah, the journey led me to a state that I can't look back and wish I made a different decision. I married the right woman um who really has helped who, who's hardness uh its toughness, I should say can, can put up with this kind of spirit.
But then really likes that. I, I let's go, let's go. She likes that, that about me. So, you know, everything kind of worked out but it was hard and it still is really hard. It's, it's a daily grind like that grind. That is it the motivation side of it that you find hard or is it outside perspective? I mean, what if I could speak frankly running a restaurant is hard? Um It's difficult and it's not, it's not a joyful experience a lot of the time. Um It's, it's be because the amount of decisions that need to be made wears on you if you know, Steve Jobs went to his black shirt theory, like he would, he would wear the same black shirt and jeans because the amount of decisions we have in one day is limited.
Well, I understand that and, and so when you have a lot of people look to you and say I need your um guidance or I need great decisions or screw you, you don't pay me enough or I hate this place I'm leaving or I love this place. I'm never leaving whatever it is there. It's based on a decision. You're probably a part of and then I could go down to the, the legal side of the business or I could, you know, I could keep going the innovation side, but it's not necessarily just the restaurant.
I mean, because I could argue that Sarah would probably say the same thing about running the chamber and I'm certainly gonna say the same about running an agency. So I think it's just running the business in general. Right? Is the seat that we're all. Do you find that part of it is the balance of how personally invested you are in your team and in your business and in how much you care? I find that I don't think that anyone knows what they're doing. If I, if you're asking geniuses who like a true mathematician, who knows what they're doing?
They would say well, what I'm doing so uh binary, it's so linear to an answer. Um What we're doing here is not linear to an answer. There is no good day in a restaurant or good day at your company. There's just getting through with more positives than negatives and more, more outcomes that are successful than unsuccessful. So it, it, it's getting caught up in that minutia. It's so much what, what is good? What is bad? Did we, are we failing? Um or we win that? I was gonna ask you what is a good day because changes, right?
And 2018, the height of the restaurant boom in Phoenix and craft beer. Boom. And, and, and the good day then was, wow. Can we maintain the growth that we have a good day now? Is, can we afford the bills? And can we not let go of somebody because of, because of the future payroll issues that we're facing? So that's if in 10 years we do a podcast, I might say, man, we had a boom and it's back to, you don't know. And that's that I'm OK with the unknown.
I'm not OK with the minutia because it kills creativity, which is where I think I lean on a lot. It's just the simple thought of you just do the next right thing. I can't tell you what I need to do a month from now or a year from now. I'm just going to do the next right thing of whatever decision is facing me right now. And that's all I've got. I like that. Um I would tell you this. I, I speaking from the heart, this is why I love having um female balance in my company.
Um 5050 is a good place to aim. That's which I don't want to sound sexist saying that was a very female answer, but that answer wasn't coming into business enough in my life. Uh where you're, you're, that's good leadership and, and this gusto thing that I think um masculine energy was really taking over craft beer and it was, it wasn't just because we were a man, it was just kind of like the Mockingbird effect. All men were doing this. And so we, you know, we never had that very concise answer.
Now, we have our head of people and culture. She has a master's degree um in hr and, and it's keep it simple. Stupid is really where we aim at. It really is. And so I don't get as wrapped up in some of the minutia. But, um, yeah, I mean, that's good leadership. What your simple path forward thing is good for your staff too. Ok. So I'm curious your comments earlier about the state and how you interpret it and what it means to you. I am curious, what does it mean to you?
What do you see in our state that maybe other people don't? Oh, that might be, I'm going to have to edit myself. Well, I don't think you actually do if you feel necessary. Well, I mean, time wise, I'm not going to go on a tirade of swearing here for you. Time wise. Well, that would be fun though too. Ben would finally feel comfortable. I might open up it, it, we, you know, I don't know the answer. That's why I said I'd go back and ask Jesus, I don't know the answer to what's going on here, but the physical world is, there's something to it that it's slowly eroding while we're quickly eroding, we get to see the slow erosion of earth around us.
And especially in Arizona, we get this magnificent display of earth falling apart while we quickly fall apart. We're lucky if we have 2100 years of cognition, maybe 267 true cognition where we have our legs can roam freely. So think about that. We get to be in the state and watching all this beauty come and go and whatever got that here and whatever will destroy it. It's just magnificent that we get to see that. And Arizona is the greatest example of what I think Earth has to offer it. It always has more, it will hurt you.
Uh uh a significant amount, your knees will not bounce back, you'll need surgeries. I love that. I think it should be difficult to go have fun. Um, I, I watch tennis for instance and I go II, I believe in tennis. I love what they're doing because it's difficult and it's challenging. So when I, when I think about exploring our state, um I'm not saying everyone should go bleed a bunch, but it will, if you want to go further, you will find difficulties, you'll find the highest of heights and the lowest of lows.
And that is important to me. What about pickle ball again? I like that. People are moving. I love that. People are moving. I don't, I think that I was going more for the intensity scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna get metaphysic sports are very metaphysical to me, it is a representation of the spiritual competition that we have to have. If we didn't have that, it'd be boring. But think about the movement that what we're offering Children, whatever the game is, you know, whatever part of the world you're playing a game and it's amazing that we're moving.
So Arizona to me, um I say all that and I can be alone. I, I'm, I'm the books coming out in January via Arizona highways and it's about all 270 wilderness areas and it's 2401 pages, which is a huge win for anyone who's writing a book. Um, I have, I have many chapters where I was the only person in that wilderness when I was there in those times and that, that's not about me. That's about what Arizona has to offer and the amount of silence that you can experience in the state is still there.
And dystopia will set in, um, as you start to see what Phoenix and Tucson Phoenix, to be honest, is growing into, but there are good positive things that the state has to offer. So, yeah. Long story short. It's amazing for a lot of reasons, but we get to watch this withering landscape slowly turn into our, our precious time here. We get to see it for what it is today and a million years from now, it'll be 210,225 years from now. It will be unrecognizable. That's so cool that we get to see it here this moment.
What is a way that you quickly reconnect with the desert or with our state? Uh uh The monsoon season is, is dangerous. So, be careful. Uh everyone, but it is really great. I was on a peak outside of Sierra Vista in the mountain range called the Huachuca. And I had a fear storm coming my way and I had nowhere to take cover um bolts, probably 193 per yeah, probably five per minute at big bolts hitting the ground and it was coming right at me and I had nowhere to go.
Um You'll really learn something about the desert, the the activity going on around you that there's not a moment where there's not everything happening all at once. When you see a monsoon happening, you realize, oh that's always happening. Whether it's underground in a mountain around you, this energy is always happening. And here in our mind, we think that landscapes are staying the same and we the movement one well inside your brain, you don't know what's going on. But a monsoon is happening inside your brain too and inside your heart, everything is movement and monsoons are are a great way to see that.
I I learned more from monsoon about my business career than I do in any book. Good to great. It's fine. Monsoon will teach you something where that water has to go, where it falls, how it falls, where it came from, we're the only state in the Union where you can see the ocean while not bordering the ocean. There's two peaks you can see the Baja um ocean, the, the gulf of California. That is a huge player in monsoon. And so it just blows my mind to think that we get this wonderful tree in the southwest.
So what blows my mind is that so many of us, um, miss that opportunity. Well, I, ok, so we do MS day every year at the brewery. We haven't talked about how I got to the brew. We'll get there, but we do MS D at the brew and I have to be very careful there. And my wife has multiple sclerosis. So there, there are many people with different variant degrees of something that they can access this. So I got to be very careful. My freedoms are not everyone else's freedoms.
There is a lot of black and brown people probably have never had access or, or anyone who's from a different culture or family who never had access to this. So I can't act like I'm John Wayne out here, you know, like some hero in a movie. It's not that what I hope that photography does is I do get to show you that it's real and it's existing and, and I can pass it to your Children because the key is when I was 219 years old, I opened up an Arizona Highways magazine now I work for them and as a, as a contributing photographer, the key is that 230, whatever that person is, whatever age they are looking at that and saying I can do that.
I want to make sure that I always remember my MS friends though because sometimes you can't. Um and, and life can suck in different ways. And here I am, we're complaining about our jobs. There are people who run businesses from a wheelchair and do not get to go anywhere. And, and so I, I try to be more forgiving to that because I'll, I'll say some kind of like, um, maybe too crude statements about get off your couch and go and my wife, like, can we talk? Um There's days I can't.
So to add a dimension to that question, that's a perspective for sure. Well, then let's talk about the brewery. Shall we? 260, backpacking the CWA wilderness. And that sign changed my life. I was listening to that podcast with the window cleaning business and had an idea. I wanted to start it and I had gone to, to enough camping, but I, I was still partying. It was just a party. It was, it was how many Miller Lights I could put down or whatever it was then came craft beer and I, and it, I still drink as much, but it was more special.
It was there. I knew that there was some sanctity in this bottle comparative to what I was doing uh, before that and on a backpack, seeing that sign with some beers in my pack, seeing that sign was a big deal. It really struck me as past this point of where I'm at. It's wilderness and it caused me to say, what is wilderness? What does that mean? Where are the boundaries? Why are their boundaries? And then you get to the, which we celebrated, um, Tuesday of this week, we, the, the 60th anniversary of the Wilderness Act was signed 60 years ago by Lyndon Johnson, which would have been Kennedy.
Um, and again, crazy turn of events on how this almost didn't happen. And if we didn't have wilderness, what would have happened, um, that moment wouldn't have happened for me. There's a good chance it would have been a mining camp. Um, because the Chiro Kawa has mineral and all of our cell phones would have pieces of Chiro kawa in it and, and think about how weird that is. Um, so I saw that and went back and, um, through a series of events, a TV show called Brewmasters that was kind of brand new to TV. Um I said to my wife, I'm going to start a brewery and she's like, you are crazy.
Whatever, you never brewed, you don't know anything. Your window cleaning business is not, you're not an entrepreneur. She looks back and laughs now, of course, and she understands that. Look in May a little more. I was like, ok, see you in four years. Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna happen. Um, so I did Kickstarter and I was the second brewery to do a crowdfund. The first one I got to learn a little bit from. They're no longer a brewery. Um, and so one of the reasons they're not, and I think we are is the base story was always what I was talking about.
I think product is the most key important part of your business. Not the company culture. Everyone who, who disagrees with me. Let's have a chat product comes first. Your product better be dope. Better be freaking awesome. Better be the best company culture, better be right behind that. Um But that first brewery when I paid attention to them and many other breweries were just making product. That's all they were. So the product was good. But then culture never followed. We do both. We really aim at the best of both.
And the story was always, I want to showcase what I love about Arizona to you. I want you to see this and part of that was why isn't any restaurant and I became friends with Bianco later. But besides Bianco, why was it that no one else was doing this? Why was no one featuring Arizona's um you know, agriculture produce meats and things like that. I was pretty naive though. So I'm speaking from 13 years later, how many farmers I've worked with and how many, you know, we plant Arizona fries, we plant Arizona malt.
We have two farms growing uh uh cows and pigs for us. So I mean, it's hard to look back but I know that the, the Kickstarter video, this young kid said the things that I'm so proud of. I was really surprised that I, when I go back and look at him, I'm like I did say those. It feels like I was too ignorant back then to understand what I was talking about. No, I said I want to represent the state in a new way. I think now my goal is to showcase um what a I, I get very upset with presidents they do not mention or any local officials.
Um State officials, I should say because, because our mayor has done a good job. All mayors um have done a good job talking about small business in Gilbert and Phoenix. But the state level and federal level is no longer saying small business is the backbone and I'm a little lost. I, I don't get it. How are we not your backbone? You're saying Verizon Wireless is our backbone and I know that they might be but we prob when you go to downtown Gilbert, you're gonna go, I go to Clever Coy, they're my homies and they're cool.
We make the city cool. We all all small businesses make Gilbert worth what, what it is. It, the personality. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, um, and the passion for that, you know, so I, I now get my duty here is to write a blueprint that Bianco passed down and my job is to pass that to the next person. So that, you know, that moment on the couch telling my wife that it wasn't about the beer. It wasn't, it was about this blueprint model. Again, back to that minutia though.
You get caught up in trying to pull, push this boulder up a mountain. You get caught up in that. Um Even with help, it still can wear you down. And then Phil Stutts has his documentary come out called Stutts and he's changed my life. That's the story of life. Keep working. That's what it is. It will not you. When you stop working, you might as well not be here. So it's helped me understand. This is the boulder. I'm pushing. This is my Boulder Wilderness Brewing Company and all the things around it are the bolder.
I'm, I'm pushing with 100 and 85 employees currently. But yeah, um and it's gonna get wet. It's gonna have lightning, it's gonna have mud, it's good. All that stuff. There's gonna be people quit on it because you, you misled them. There's gonna be people who, who stand by your side because of one thing you did once and they just trust you forever. There's so many different aspects. But yeah, I mean, to jump ahead. Um, there were some moments in there. I didn't know what I was doing. There were some moments and I was overwhelmed and, and I think we're a better business now than then.
And we've added some cool people. I don't know how I could have done better. I, I walked into a crappy uh rundown what people say, strip mall. I fight that one. It's a stand alone building and I did everything I possibly could and make the world know we were there. That was my, my sole job and responsibility fiduciary duty if you will. Um, and in the end I think people listened, then it was my job to hire the right people. Then it was my job to tell those people.
Here's what we want to do. Here's expectations, here's the clear future for you and, and, and it continues. So the brewery is when people say it, it's so little joke and it's like, it's got a beer as a brew. Ah, I, you know, I have a lot of great brewers on my team. One. Uh, all of them are incredible. They could go start throwing brewing and be successful at any point and, and we'd encourage that, but we'd also like to give them a home here while they're here and say you are literally the best brewers.
My head executive chef David was born in Mexico City and started dishwashing 20 years ago in Flagstaff, Arizona. And my head of restaurant hired him from the back door. 303 years later, they're running a restaurant. It's, it's one of the great American dream stories. And this brown skinned man who didn't know a thing about English is now an executive chef winning Devour Awards. So all of this would I have known that on that couch? No, but my wife now goes, I now get it. You were just struck by that lightning pun it, you know, and call back you were struck by something.
And poor guy. She says poor guy about me. And now other people understand it. I can't do much about it. I gotta go like, you know, I decided to do an Iron Man one day to get rid of some energy. And I did it, I wasn't quite ready for it. I did it on my own. I started in Swirl Lake and I went around mcdowell Mountain 10 times unregistered because this energy builds up and I got to get it out. So, whether it's guitar backpacking or photography, yeah, I gotta get the energy out and, and, and because I'm afraid that I'll go start another thing for wilderness, you know.
So I, my wife gets me a little more now and I think she appreciates that. I took her 41 K to start a brewery, you know, 13 years. You know, after I did that, it's kind of working, it's working, it's there, it's doing something I'm proud of it. And, you know, So, and along the way, the one thing I am curious about is your business partner. How do you convince somebody else to chase this dream with you? Well, I think Patrick, I think the world of Pat, um, I think Patrick, the best example I can give you of who he really is is when he's running that 100 he'll stay himself the whole time.
He'll get it done, but he won't try to win. He won't try to um, do anything out of his means, but he'll grind it out. He won't complain. Once miles 67 the famous like mid sixties where you wanna bonk and just quit, he won't, he'll get it done. Um Ultra marathoning is kind of Patrick. He will go the distance with you. He will stay in the game with you. He is very thoughtful. So going back to how to get him, how to convince him he has a version of the story that I laugh at.
Um, but the arrogance that I displayed well, he gets it. Now when you're a kid in a garage with a window cleaning business and you're starting a brewery, you gotta be a little cocky. Um I've talked to Chris about this and Joe Johnson, I've talked to him about this. I've gotten some good mentorship from them. You were talking about mentors earlier. Uh I've gotten some good mentorship where I think there's a time for that and there's a time to stop. But in the beginning I was heavy into that and he took it as you're going to come work for me one day, he was working at San Tan Brewing company and I was like, you're gonna come work for me one day in my mind.
I was like, hey, you'd be an asset. Let's do this together, you know. But I didn't know what you didn't know. And that's a good thing. Exactly. And whatever realm I was in, I don't know if I saw the truth. I had to get this boulder going and anyone who started a business knows what I'm talking about, that's actually harder than running the business. But you don't remember it and you don't have no fear of that either. It's just, it's just like what you do. Right. My recency bias makes me feel what I'm going through now is the most.
If I went back down I'd be, oh, my gosh. I had $70 to my name. My wife had a 401k that I was accessing, taking the 10% hit. I had to go talk a brewer into it because I didn't know how to brew. I didn't know what I was doing. I had home brewed with Kickstarter money. This guy, I, I had to have him. He's also pretty blue eyes and girls were like, yeah, I like him. Not that, that matters. But it was his charm. That's my point. He's, he's, he's got a lovely partner.
And he's one of the best people. She's one of the best people ever. But back then I liked the, I liked what people thought about him and I knew that that's a partner I was looking for. So, talking him into it wasn't easy. He wasn't into it. Then he came down, saw the setup, saw the beer and tasted the beer and was like, oh, this is the best beer I've had in the state. What's going on here? And that's when we say proof is in the pudding.
That's how, that's how it should be. Your product should be amazing. Your story should not lead as the best thing you have. Your product should be amazing. Whatever you're doing, the product needs to be the best. So you're saying you want them through your stomach? Yeah. It's taste buds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think he was a little freaked out by me. I mean, who wouldn't be that? You're what? Huh. Um, and over time, you know, you should have him on because he's, he is, I think he's a genius and his intellect will come through the whole time and he's so different than me in other ways and his perspective is incredible.
But you'll be like, man, what a perfect CEO of those two combined. Uh The, what he, it was, it was meant to be, I went to see a psychic and I walked in and she said, and this is in Sedona. Very classic. She said Irish, Irish Patrick, he is your meant to be other. First thing she said to me, ok, I found her by flipping through a book and I was like, oh, I'll go see that one. So this person wouldn't have known coming in. I'm like, ok, and she was like, yeah, you guys were Celtic Warriors at one point?
Ok. I guess you could have assumed. I have a friend named Patrick as like a white guy walking in your office. But that seems pretty legit. She's like, yeah, he's, he's a part of your soul journey. Ok. Sure enough. I also just find it really inspiring how you see the potential in others and you know who to surround yourself with. I mean, I just don't, I love that. You see that because I sorry to cut you off. But when I go back to what we do, we give people a spotlight, whatever the spotlight may be and whatever they want will be the spotlight they get all they have to do in return is do their job.
And again, clear expectations, clear pathways. It's all we're asking for in return. If Matt Myers is a bartender that everyone knows that wilderness. He's been there since day 25. He's one of the greatest humans alive. If you stick around long enough, he would, again, maybe he comes on once, what it's like to work at wilderness. You, you will get a voice in a particular way. I won't give it to you to just grow out of this thing that we have the special energy. We have. Chef David though doesn't want a word in front of people.
He, his story is beautiful and he ha he Don Guerre um owns Barrio Bakery. He's a James Beard winning baker. Um He's our neighbor now in Gilbert, which is a magical alignment. Don won James beard and can really relate to chef because Don was like, I didn't want to say much as a brown skinned boy. I was like, yeah, it's the white world. No, it's not. That's not true. America is not that. And so chef's like coming out of the shell, this is eight years with us and yes, I love that underdog approach is me 100%.
Even my photography would reflect that. I like the dying tree that's trying to live. That's what I'm trying to show people. Arizona is exactly that. Um I believe this state should not be the five C state. I think that that was our detrimental period even though currently we're growing at rates that are, it's based on, we're such a stuck in the 19 fifties place. I was going to say it's not something that I believe people can really identify with or care about. And I think that, um I just, your way of, I mean, I've lived in the almost my entire life.
I don't see it through that lens. And just the way you have shared it through your lens today makes me see our state differently and have a little bit of a different appreciation for it. That's good. There is a field right now of pure flowers. First week of September, white mountains will have pure yellow flowers and it's just in the breeze right now. That's happening right now. The Grand Canyon of the Colorado river is flowing right now as we speak with a condor dropping in over it.
There, there is the western deserts. There are certain birds living along the Colorado that don't live anywhere in the world. And stanza swirls are collecting this hot sun and saying, hey, I love this hot sun. I mean, it's all happening and it's happening in a state that's slowly degrading its natural side because of us being here. So we can't again with having to work. We can't just sit in a state of acceptance. We can't sit here and say it's beautiful without saying what is there to do.
And wilderness also has that journey. Um Sorry to change subjects, but it has that journey as well. That's part of our mission is to understand that, you know, I I do start speeches differently than I used to. Um the sun will expand one day and kill us all earth included. Knowing that is very helpful to understand your own journey. This is not, this is ephemeral and this is not I don't even know if it's real. I know it sounds crazy but prove it one, a million years from now.
We're even here. So while we're here we will work. And one of the things I think we should work on is loving planet earth. And it doesn't mean feel guilty for everything you do because you are in a system, you can't get out of that system. I can't, I live in a suburb home here in Gilbert and I don't know who built it. I don't know where the wood came from. I'd like to go towards knowing how to build a home, but I can't, so how I can.
Um I can help by that moment that you're looking for from either my Photography Wilderness. You can now be a part of it by joining in at Arizona Wilder Springing Company, Pat and I do not take any profits from the company. We pay ourselves a fair salary. What I'm doing is I'm paying um 30 to 60 farmers and purveyors um monthly. I'm taking that money and giving it back to a system that I think is better for the state. And that's, that's you partaking in this great state as well.
So we're trying to give access to everybody. So you don't have to go to every corner of the state. Um But it's still what I love is it's still happening, that flower still blowing right now and it's just beautiful. Things are happening. You don't need to be there for them to be happening. The tree did fall even though you didn't hear it. It's happening. And to live in a state without much beauty is a blessing and I can appreciate that. It's not an either or in terms of our approach is a yes and right.
And I think sometimes we get stuck in. Well, if we can't do, if we can't do something, then let's just not do anything. Yeah, I think you said it best. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, this has been awesome. Sorry to rain. No, this is, this is exactly what this is all about. This is great. I only touched the table twice. Your audio, Derek will get you to watch it. I met Derek at Brew at the zoo. We, we used to go to this uh festival and he got to uh partake in the early days of wilderness when we were just like, what do you want to do today about these problems?
We've had a business like we didn't know what we were doing every morning. You remember those days? It was just like I'm going to go in and just attack them with vigor, but they still exist. But I'm not going in with vigor every day. I'm going in and saying, hey, experts that have hired that are way smarter than me. You're saying, what would you do here? Why would we do this? Why would we spend that? Much money on marketing. It hasn't worked in the past. Let me give you a space for an answer and not go in and just start ripping things apart.
I can say I really appreciate the conversation today. I really appreciate your self awareness and your vulnerability and you're willing to just allow us a peek behind the curtain into what makes you who you are. It's amazing. I appreciate it. Gilbert has given me a lot. I still live here. We're, we're trying to keep the brewery here, you know, lease negotiations are always fun. I believe we will. But I mean, in return, I've gotten a lot from this place and Dan Henderson is a big part of that.
The first person I called and I remember him going, wait, wait, where is it at? And now he's like, you know, I just hadn't had a lot of entrepreneurs calling me. That's funny. Dan helped me with this building too. So a lot of people helps me every week. Let's not say his name too much because his head might start to, you know. Yeah, but I, I have to ask him for things, you know. That's awesome. Alright. Well, thanks to everybody for listening. This has been a great episode.
We appreciate you joining us. If you want these in your inbox, join our tribe, subscribe and they'll jump right in there when we make them. Thanks for being here, guiding growth, conversations with community leaders. Ben let me ask you a question. How do you see other community members being involved in this podcast? This is going to be a great opportunity for so many people in the community to have a chance to be heard if they want to tell their story or if they just want to be part of this journey with us and help sponsor in a way that helps bring more people to the table with us.
So I think there's many opportunities at hand whether you want to again be on the show, reach out to us, let us know what your story is and how you think you could be part of it. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out, let us know and we'll see if we can make that connection.
